Curse

Holy Raptor · Apr 04, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Maybe they should make a way for PvP characters to do PvE missions that the person has already done. Like the Zaihen’s challenge(sp?) but you can select PvE missions everyone in your party has already been to. Including missions you are at but have not yet completed for the sake of testing certain builds, practicing the run, etc.

lyra_song · Apr 04, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've just described about 1% of the "natural progression" of prophesies. To me it would be Ascalon -> Shiverpeaks -> Kryta -> Maguuma ->Desert-> Shiverpeaks -> Fire Isle -> Shiverpeaks -> Desert -> Desert -> Maguuma -> Shiverpeaks etc etc etc etc. You want to constrain people to using the same fraction of skills over and over?

Outline for me the chronological timeline of the story, in reference to the locations you visit and you'll find my basic layout to be correct.
Not to say a player cannot deviate from this path at his/her own choosing. Certainly prophecies is more free in this aspect...Factions/Nightfall is not.

What I want, I've outlined on page 3.
I want a compromise, since i understand your position and thoroughly sympathize.

Quote:

No, its my expectation to be able to access a reasonable amount of the games content without having to grind for thousands of hours first.

What a "reasonable amount of content" is debatable.

What percentage of the game is the main storyline, the main quests, and side quests?
What number of skills is considered reasonable, and which is not?
How many casual PvE players actually go outside a basic build?
How much of PvE is actually about acquiring skills?
How many missions have certain skill requirements?

And certainly grinding for thousands of hours is an exaggeration. Im at 18 months, and i only have 2300 hours in. The only classes i do not have good skills and builds for are Ritualist and Elementalist since im caught up in getting obsidian armor for my Ranger..which btw is a grind i chose to do.

Quote:

The game was also "designed" to have refund points and unlocks only via pve. When enough people tell anet that the design they came up with inteferes with their enjoyment, they'll come around.

*sigh* here we go again.

Refund points are irrelevant to the argument. Their removal and change to the system affects only individual characters.

Refund points were a flawed and exploitable concept and although i agree with its removal, i think the new application of a gui based re-spec is kinda dumb.

Balthazar Points do not affect individual characters either. They affect only PvP, and in fact only add more options to grind to the game. Balthazar point unlocking skills did not affect individual characters (Until they allowed you to buy all unlocked skills at any trainer, and Heros could access those skills...another set of broken concepts).

The addition of Balthazar points imo, is stupid, since they do not contribute to anything other than the seperation of PvP and PvE.

======================
To conclude.
From what I've learned this boils down to a things.

1) Some players expect to have access to certain amounts of content.
2) Some players do not want to have to unlock content multiple times.
3) Some players do not like anything about PvE other than playing around with builds and skills.

These basic concepts alone are reasonable and sound. However applying them to this argument, that being "Access to unlocked skills in PvE", simply do not hold up.

1) Almost all content in the game is restricted but is available as the character progresses. Gaining some of this content is as simple as uncovering the map, or buying a skill, or finishing a quest or mission.

Some content even requires more explicit circumstances such as Favor or a ferry.

Acquiring skills is accessible already. There is nothing holding you back other than gold and skill points (and ive pointed out that it should be lowered in cost).

2) There needs to be a clear differentiation between characters and accounts that players need to understand. "Unlocking" Skills/Mods/Runes via balthazar faction, purchasing, and identifying do no contribute physical usable items or skills to the character.

"Unlocking" for an account is completely different from buying a skill for a character.

3) Thats your preference. But i dont see how your playing style preferences should be enough to warrant any change in the game, especially if changing the game to suit your needs is counter-intuitive to basic RPG game design and basic game design in general.

I could just as easily say that I only play as a Warrior and thats my preference Thats the only way i play and the game should stop making mesmer enemies since it makes my gameplay style a lot harder to do.

-------

I think Im done with this thread, its getting boring and repetitive. Other than the idea about missions rewarding you with skills, theres nothing interesting, new or convincing being discussed.

The only fun ive had is with mythics, since he based his argument on the GW mantra of "skill > time spent".

You could say im just a simulationist.

TabascoSauce · Apr 04, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

So, with the exception of kazjun, everyone who has posted here in the last 40 posts or so is in total agreement with the OPs statement of the problem, quoted here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythics

Why can we not just immediately gain access to skills we've already unlocked? Granted, that may not be the best option, but the issue is thus:

1. Experimentation in PvE is just as fun to me as it is in PvP.

2. The time it takes to reacquire the same skills on a different character is absurd.

We are not debating whether there is a problem, what we are debating about is the resolution of said problem.

It is impossible to disprove the statements above, since we all have played the game and know how long it takes to get even a simple majority of skills captured. It is not a trivial task, as it is in PvP.

Editorial comments aside, the game is built to disallow easy skills re-acquisition in PvE. I have always wondered about that, since there is no negative to making those "reasonable" amount of skills easier to acquire.

Your milk will still be in your fridge if skills are easier to re-acquire.

If anyone has negatives, other than the same old tired "This is the way it is now" mantra, or semantic-based argumental avoidance of "what does reasonable mean", then please speak up.

So now we can move on to productive debate, as in what would be the way to solve the issue.

Is Mythics still here? Would half or quarter price skills at the vendor solve your problem?

Thx!
TabascoSauce

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So, with the exception of kazjun, everyone who has posted here in the last 40 posts or so is in total agreement with the OPs statement of the problem, quoted here:

We are not debating whether there is a problem, what we are debating about is the resolution of said problem.

It is impossible to disprove the statements above, since we all have played the game and know how long it takes to get even a simple majority of skills captured. It is not a trivial task, as it is in PvP.

Editorial comments aside, the game is built to disallow easy skills re-acquisition in PvE. I have always wondered about that, since there is no negative to making those "reasonable" amount of skills easier to acquire.

Your milk will still be in your fridge if skills are easier to re-acquire.

If anyone has negatives, other than the same old tired "This is the way it is now" mantra, or semantic-based argumental avoidance of "what does reasonable mean", then please speak up.

So now we can move on to productive debate, as in what would be the way to solve the issue.

Is Mythics still here? Would half or quarter price skills at the vendor solve your problem?

Thx!
TabascoSauce

It seems to me that there are several ways to solve the issue:

-Once your character reaches ascension or the factions/nightfall equivalent, all unlocked skill are usable.
-Once your character reaches ascension or the factions/nightfall equivalent, all unlocked skill for your secondary professions are usable.
-Buy skills in bulk, such as having the option to buy a spell individually or buy all healing prayer skills you have unlocked for a lower price.
-Reduce/Remove the Gold or Skill Point requirement for obtaining skills.

Personally, I think secondary professions are the biggest deal. Your primary should only have a little over a hundred skills, but thanks to secondaries, there are over a thousand of skills to learn and combine- that's a lot.

nytestalker · Apr 04, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

It seems to me that there are several ways to solve the issue:

-Once your character reaches ascension or the factions/nightfall equivalent, all unlocked skill are usable.
-Once your character reaches ascension or the factions/nightfall equivalent, all unlocked skill for your secondary professions are usable.
-Buy skills in bulk, such as having the option to buy a spell individually or buy all healing prayer skills you have unlocked for a lower price.
-Reduce/Remove the Gold or Skill Point requirement for obtaining skills.

Personally, I think secondary professions are the biggest deal. Your primary should only have a little over a hundred skills, but thanks to secondaries, there are over a thousand of skills to learn and combine- that's a lot.

Personally... I would like to see it setup that once you reach 200 attribute points, you have access accross the board. (pri/sec)

For a chapter 1 character this means doing both the 15 point quests near the end.

For chapters 2 and 3 (both are designed for high end play, so the 15 point quests are actually on the starter islands) this would mean you have done both quests and THEN leveled up to level 20.

(typically lvl 20's in chapter 1 have not yet done either of the quests. assuming you ascend around lvl 17/19)

This way it basically becomes - hit level 20, get your skills. (excepting of course those few chapter 1 characters that have yet to do the 15 point quests)

Tempy · Apr 04, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy Raptor

Maybe they should make a way for PvP characters to do PvE missions that the person has already done. Like the Zaihen’s challenge(sp?) but you can select PvE missions everyone in your party has already been to. Including missions you are at but have not yet completed for the sake of testing certain builds, practicing the run, etc.

Maybe we should make it that each new PvP toon has to earn its unlocks with money or gold & faction points AND its rank. No more 30 second old toon to try out a crazy new build idea with all unlocked skills (currently available). No more Rank7 each toon is separate. (Just cuz your R/Nec was an R7 doesn't mean you'll be any good as an E/A, he'll have to earn his own ranking)

*waits for the PvP is supposed to be like that(about skill...see R/Nec comment above) , PvE is about character development BS.*

EDIT: Like in other threads about this...there are alot of good points towards having this change. There needs to be something done. Hopefully like storage and other things we will see it happen.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

Personally... I would like to see it setup that once you reach 200 attribute points, you have access accross the board. (pri/sec)

For a chapter 1 character this means doing both the 15 point quests near the end.

For chapters 2 and 3 (both are designed for high end play, so the 15 point quests are actually on the starter islands) this would mean you have done both quests and THEN leveled up to level 20.

(typically lvl 20's in chapter 1 have not yet done either of the quests. assuming you ascend around lvl 17/19)

This way it basically becomes - hit level 20, get your skills. (excepting of course those few chapter 1 characters that have yet to do the 15 point quests)

Now THAT is an idea I like!

Personette · Apr 04, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Also: skill quests.

The idea of having skills quests where you can select the award would be interesting (or maybe collectors? Who reward you with skills instead of weapons you don't want? Which actually carries through the 'purchasing' thing that so many people seem to be insistent upon)